Random message. I previously watched your play through of Portal Revolutions which you posted to YouTube. That was really good, plenty of commentary on the game, the underlying tech etc - I have watched it a few times.
I got a query from a friend of my son, who wanted to work on something Portal related - and so I suggested he look at the Portal-2 community edition project. And then I see that you are involved in that project in the development team. Congrats - looks a great project, though very ambitious - hope it is progressing for you.
I have played thru most of the published Portal and Portal-2 mods on Steam. And have the "pending" ones on my Wishlist. It must be tough getting a mod over the line - and some of those pending projects have been in "coming soon!" mode for years (I think).
Some of the feedback to published mods were (tbh) pretty unpleasant. For instance "Portal Forbidden Test Tracks" was not perfect, and had some quirks (tho I finished it). But much of the feedkback was just revolting. Maybe that is how the world is now. So a good Modder needs a thick skin too??
Thank you very much for the kind words and encouragement! Yeah, I happened to have been one of the playtesters for Revolution, and so I had a bit more insight into its development than the average player. Coincidentally, I was also working on Portal 2: Community Edition at that time, and Revolution is somewhat connected to that project as well.
My part on P2:CE's development is primarily puzzle design, with a bit of game design, texturing and programming on top of it (though only through scripting, I'm not one of the licensed programmers). I'm primarily focused on working on the campaign that will be shipped with P2:CE's release, but I do also often tackle "administrative" tasks, especially those related to beta testing and community moderation.
Regarding your son's friend's interest, let him know that if he has any questions about anything related to working on Portal projects, he can contact me or anyone on the P2:CE Discord server and we'll be more than happy to help. We very often get people who are new to mapping and modding and we have a lot of resources and knowledgeable people willing to help out! I will say this though: if he truly enjoys the process of creating levels or puzzles or games, he should start small. Time and time again I see younger folks fall into the trap of making their first project, their first ambition, be to realize their "dream game". And while I would encourage people to follow their dreams and to be ambitious, the vast, overwhelming majority of the time, they'll get overwhelmed or discouraged or burned out by the process of learning and will give up on both their learning and on their project. And for the very few that push through and release something, you end up with something like "Portal Forbidden Testing Tracks", in which the entire experience is noticeably amateurish and unpolished, and often times frustrating or even broken. If he wants to enjoy his time creating things for games, and if he wants to be able to create good quality projects, he should start small: one single map, one tiny experimental feature or mechanic. Then, get playtesters, feedback, and be open to criticism. Then, slowly but surely, he'll be able to learn and improve his skills enough to where he might even start making his own independent games one day. At least that's how it's been for me, and I know I wouldn't have been where I am today if it wasn't for all the help and feedback I got from this community, but more importantly, from taking it one step at a time and not jumping to huge endeavors without learning the ropes first.
Now, about the current state of most upcoming mods, all I can really say is that yeah, it is a very difficult and time-consuming process. Most mods are years away from releasing, and many never get to release due to a number of unforeseen reasons: personal life issues, team disagreements, or the dev(s) becoming increasingly disinterested or dissatisfied with the project and just giving up. It's the most likely outcome, because making a good quality mod takes many years of unpaid work, and requires multiple talented people to be coordinated and work well together towards a shared vision. In other words, there are too many single points of failure for these types of projects, especially given they're always done as a passion project and not as a paid job.
P2:CE is fortunate enough to be in a position where we have mostly structured the project to be workable even if team members leave or joined – which has happened a lot. I, for example, joined the project in late 2022. By that point, it was already well underway. Since then, I saw people join and leave the project, became a department head, gained additional responsibilities, and had my workflow change immensely. But we are very committed to not letting this project die, especially since, unlike most other mods, this one has the additional baggage of being a mod base and set of tools for other mod developers. We're all making a lot of good progress behind the scenes, and we are all motivated to keep this momentum going. If we were to give up, many other projects directly dependent on P2:CE would be forced to stop, and that's just too unfair for us to allow. The team that we have today is very hard working and passionate, and we're fortunate enough to all work really well together and have a strong shared vision for the project. But we are also all too aware of the many issues that could cause development to slow down or come to a halt – most of which we've already dealt with and implemented safeguards around, one way or another. So I can say this with a confidence that most projects can't have: we WILL release P2:CE. Ideally, sometime within a year.
Lastly, regarding the unpleasant feedback: I don't think it's right for people to be mean, condescending or dismissive of those projects, even if they're not as polished as the bigger mods. However, I do understand why this tends to happen: almost always, it's because the project was either rushed together for ulterior motives, or the developer(s) were completely unreceptive to otherwise constructive criticism. It's a mix of resentment from a more experienced public who expected more from the devs, and disappointment from the players who didn't get a polished experience like they were accustomed to. Most of the time, it could've been avoided if the people behind these projects followed the steps I mentioned earlier, about starting smaller, getting playtesters, and taking in feedback. I believe anyone is capable of creating an amazing and fun project if they're determined. And I also believe that anyone just wanting to work on a passion project with no commitment or attachment to an external public's opinion should be allowed to! But it's healthier for both parties when those lines are clearly communicated (which they almost never are). Casual personal projects are often presented as big public-facing games, and the public sometimes doesn't understand or expect those to be on the same platforms as those other big, polished, high-quality games. It's all a big mess of unmet expectations from either side that could be remedied with more open communication. Hence why communities are so important, and also why, at least in the case of the P2:CE Discord server, we try to be receptive and open to beginners who are there to learn and have fun, no strings attached.
Sorry if this got lengthy, but thank you for reaching out and for the good wishes! I was actually in the middle of some CE-related work when I saw your comment, so hopefully this is a good sign that we're making good work on it :)
:[
ReplyDeleteRandom message. I previously watched your play through of Portal Revolutions which you posted to YouTube. That was really good, plenty of commentary on the game, the underlying tech etc - I have watched it a few times.
ReplyDeleteI got a query from a friend of my son, who wanted to work on something Portal related - and so I suggested he look at the Portal-2 community edition project.
And then I see that you are involved in that project in the development team.
Congrats - looks a great project, though very ambitious - hope it is progressing for you.
I have played thru most of the published Portal and Portal-2 mods on Steam. And have the "pending" ones on my Wishlist. It must be tough getting a mod over the line - and some of those pending projects have been in "coming soon!" mode for years (I think).
Some of the feedback to published mods were (tbh) pretty unpleasant. For instance "Portal Forbidden Test Tracks" was not perfect, and had some quirks (tho I finished it). But much of the feedkback was just revolting. Maybe that is how the world is now. So a good Modder needs a thick skin too??
Best of luck with the CE project.
Thank you very much for the kind words and encouragement! Yeah, I happened to have been one of the playtesters for Revolution, and so I had a bit more insight into its development than the average player. Coincidentally, I was also working on Portal 2: Community Edition at that time, and Revolution is somewhat connected to that project as well.
DeleteMy part on P2:CE's development is primarily puzzle design, with a bit of game design, texturing and programming on top of it (though only through scripting, I'm not one of the licensed programmers). I'm primarily focused on working on the campaign that will be shipped with P2:CE's release, but I do also often tackle "administrative" tasks, especially those related to beta testing and community moderation.
Regarding your son's friend's interest, let him know that if he has any questions about anything related to working on Portal projects, he can contact me or anyone on the P2:CE Discord server and we'll be more than happy to help. We very often get people who are new to mapping and modding and we have a lot of resources and knowledgeable people willing to help out! I will say this though: if he truly enjoys the process of creating levels or puzzles or games, he should start small. Time and time again I see younger folks fall into the trap of making their first project, their first ambition, be to realize their "dream game". And while I would encourage people to follow their dreams and to be ambitious, the vast, overwhelming majority of the time, they'll get overwhelmed or discouraged or burned out by the process of learning and will give up on both their learning and on their project. And for the very few that push through and release something, you end up with something like "Portal Forbidden Testing Tracks", in which the entire experience is noticeably amateurish and unpolished, and often times frustrating or even broken. If he wants to enjoy his time creating things for games, and if he wants to be able to create good quality projects, he should start small: one single map, one tiny experimental feature or mechanic. Then, get playtesters, feedback, and be open to criticism. Then, slowly but surely, he'll be able to learn and improve his skills enough to where he might even start making his own independent games one day. At least that's how it's been for me, and I know I wouldn't have been where I am today if it wasn't for all the help and feedback I got from this community, but more importantly, from taking it one step at a time and not jumping to huge endeavors without learning the ropes first.
(cont'd)
Now, about the current state of most upcoming mods, all I can really say is that yeah, it is a very difficult and time-consuming process. Most mods are years away from releasing, and many never get to release due to a number of unforeseen reasons: personal life issues, team disagreements, or the dev(s) becoming increasingly disinterested or dissatisfied with the project and just giving up. It's the most likely outcome, because making a good quality mod takes many years of unpaid work, and requires multiple talented people to be coordinated and work well together towards a shared vision. In other words, there are too many single points of failure for these types of projects, especially given they're always done as a passion project and not as a paid job.
DeleteP2:CE is fortunate enough to be in a position where we have mostly structured the project to be workable even if team members leave or joined – which has happened a lot. I, for example, joined the project in late 2022. By that point, it was already well underway. Since then, I saw people join and leave the project, became a department head, gained additional responsibilities, and had my workflow change immensely. But we are very committed to not letting this project die, especially since, unlike most other mods, this one has the additional baggage of being a mod base and set of tools for other mod developers. We're all making a lot of good progress behind the scenes, and we are all motivated to keep this momentum going. If we were to give up, many other projects directly dependent on P2:CE would be forced to stop, and that's just too unfair for us to allow. The team that we have today is very hard working and passionate, and we're fortunate enough to all work really well together and have a strong shared vision for the project. But we are also all too aware of the many issues that could cause development to slow down or come to a halt – most of which we've already dealt with and implemented safeguards around, one way or another. So I can say this with a confidence that most projects can't have: we WILL release P2:CE. Ideally, sometime within a year.
Lastly, regarding the unpleasant feedback: I don't think it's right for people to be mean, condescending or dismissive of those projects, even if they're not as polished as the bigger mods. However, I do understand why this tends to happen: almost always, it's because the project was either rushed together for ulterior motives, or the developer(s) were completely unreceptive to otherwise constructive criticism. It's a mix of resentment from a more experienced public who expected more from the devs, and disappointment from the players who didn't get a polished experience like they were accustomed to. Most of the time, it could've been avoided if the people behind these projects followed the steps I mentioned earlier, about starting smaller, getting playtesters, and taking in feedback. I believe anyone is capable of creating an amazing and fun project if they're determined. And I also believe that anyone just wanting to work on a passion project with no commitment or attachment to an external public's opinion should be allowed to! But it's healthier for both parties when those lines are clearly communicated (which they almost never are). Casual personal projects are often presented as big public-facing games, and the public sometimes doesn't understand or expect those to be on the same platforms as those other big, polished, high-quality games. It's all a big mess of unmet expectations from either side that could be remedied with more open communication. Hence why communities are so important, and also why, at least in the case of the P2:CE Discord server, we try to be receptive and open to beginners who are there to learn and have fun, no strings attached.
Sorry if this got lengthy, but thank you for reaching out and for the good wishes! I was actually in the middle of some CE-related work when I saw your comment, so hopefully this is a good sign that we're making good work on it :)